Get Rich Education
Show Host Keith Weinhold’s real estate investing show provides actionable content for busy people to create financial freedom through strategic passive investing. Keith Weinhold, a Forbes Real Estate Council member, shares insights on cash flow and Return On Time, helping listeners expand their means since 2002. New episodes every Monday.
Show Host Keith Weinhold’s real estate investing show provides actionable content for busy people to create financial freedom through strategic passive investing. Keith Weinhold, a Forbes Real Estate Council member, shares insights on cash flow and Return On Time, helping listeners expand their means since 2002. New episodes every Monday.
Recent Episodes
Keith explores how real estate investors can use mortgage strategies to build long-term wealth.
Seasoned lending expert and repeat guest Caeli Ridge joins Keith to discuss why debt isn’t something to avoid but to optimize, and how negotiating terms can matter more than price. They walk through practical approaches for new and experienced investors, from house hacking to scaling a rental portfolio. The conversation also tackles common myths about qualifying for investment property loans and what really matters to lenders.
Finally, they emphasize focusing on fundamentals—cash flow, risk management, and informed decision-making—rather than fixating on interest rate headlines.
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Complete episode transcript:
Keith Weinhold 0:01
Welcome to GRE I’m your host. Keith Weinhold Some mortgage guidance out there is costing you wealth today. I’m talking about how you can negotiate to get better terms. I’ll tell you the exact questions to ask. Then a guest clears up mortgage myths and misconceptions and how you can borrow to win today on get rich education
Keith Weinhold 0:28
let me ask you something, if you’ve worked hard to build wealth, is your money positioned to actually support your goals? A lot of accredited investors leave capital sitting in cash because it feels safe, but inflation and missed income opportunities can quietly erode its value. Freedom family investments offers freedom notes for investors seeking structured income backed by real estate. It’s a straightforward approach built on real assets, not speculation and full disclosure. I’m an investor myself. What I like is that their team walks you through how it all works so you can decide if it aligns with your portfolio and income goals. Every investment carries risk and nothing is guaranteed, but with a track record of consistent on time investor payouts, they built real credibility. Go to freedomfamilyinvestments.com to book a clarity call or text family to 66 866, that’s family to 6866
Speaker 1 1:32
you’re listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.
Keith Weinhold 1:48
Welcome to GRE from Albany, New York to Albany, Oregon and across 188 nations worldwide. You’re listening to get rich Education. I’m your host. Keith Weinhold, as we know, debt isn’t something to avoid. It’s something to optimize. As a real estate investor, I would rather have lower mortgage rates than higher ones, and now you can call me Captain Obvious. Yet there are some reasons that higher mortgage rates benefit us as investors, though they’re not as great as the lower rates are I’ll discuss some of that today. This stuff obviously influences marketplace behavior. In fact, here we are now, years after rates made their historic surge and nearly tripled between 2022 and 2023 and yet still, 70% of mortgage borrowers have an astoundingly rock bottom rate below 5% today, lower than the ocean floor, and they won’t sell those properties. That’s just one contributor to the low supply hangover that still lingers. Are today’s buyers still anchored to an unrealistic baseline. It certainly reframed how investors think about normal borrowing costs and what that word normal means. My first ever rental property, many years ago, was purchased at a 30 year fixed rate of six and three eighths percent. One year later, I got to refinance a full 1% lower at five and three eighths. I’m happy that I bought one I did because starting year earlier, got all my real estate benefits rolling that much sooner, the leverage and everything else, and when I did that, refinance many years ago, from six and three eighths down to five and three eighths, I was able to roll all of my loan refinance costs into the new mortgage balance, and that way I didn’t have to pay anything out of pocket. So financing is negotiable. A lot of investors don’t realize that buy down your rate if you want roll the loan costs into the loan amount, like I did. In fact, I would usually rather have a higher mortgage rate and then not have to come out of pocket at the table. I would rather do it that way. Sometimes I take a higher rate and even get cash back at the closing table. So I walk away from the closing table with a property and cash, but yet with a bigger mortgage. And what’s the strategy there? Well, with more inevitable Inflation, I want to load up on the dollars that I get now and then make those paybacks over the long term with future cheaper, diluted dollars for 360 months, sometimes I don’t have to ask the lender for any sort of favor to get that zero help from the lender at the closing table to get cash back. How do I do that? Well, I ask the seller to give me cash at the closing. Closing table in return for offering the seller full asking price, or sometimes even over the asking price. I have done it the strategy of offering full price or even a little more than the full list price. See, that’s often easier than getting a price cut from the seller, and that works great, because getting the closing table, cash is going to benefit you more than the price cut would anyway, in almost every circumstance, and when it comes to your lender, ask them questions that cut through the noise. Now, lenders have to make their profits somewhere and stay in business, but I’ve asked the question, what’s the break even point on this rate buy down. That’s something you can ask today. That can be an even better question for you to ask of builders with all of the buy downs that they’re doing for you now, most people know about a mortgage rate lock. That’s when you’re in contract to buy a property. At some point, you and your mortgage company, you lock in your rate for, say, 30 to 60 days, and that way, if the rate rises before the deal is completed, you are protected. You are locked in. But some lenders also offer float downs. That’s for if you lock and then rates go lower before you get the deal closed. In that case, you get the lower rate, and now you successfully played both sides, but most borrowers don’t know to ask about a float down for larger apartment buildings, sometimes you can negotiate away prepayment penalties or instead a shorter penalty window. The thing to keep in mind is that smallest borrowers negotiate price, but savvy investors negotiate structure. That’s what we’re talking about here, and that’s why you often hear that terms are more important than price. So there’s plenty of opportunity here, even if historically low rates is not where today’s opportunity lies. Today, we’re going to discuss some things about mortgages that most people believe but are just flat out wrong. Also, what separates the borrowers who build real estate portfolios from the ones who stay stuck on property one, let’s have a conversation with this week’s repeat guest, a real favorite here at GRE for her mortgage clarity.
Keith Weinhold 7:35
Hey, the president of ridge lending group, Chaley Ridge is back with us. We’ll get into things like rates and loan strategy shortly, but first, let’s discuss some fun. What would you do? Chili, what would you do if you’re 35 and have 100k to invest in real estate? What’s your first move? Ooh, good question.
Caeli Ridge 7:55
So let’s think five years ago for me now I’m 35 what would I do if I had that was a joke for all you listeners, obviously, you know, I think that if I could go back and knowing what I know now, I would probably invest that into an owner occupied house hack using an FHA loan. Probably look for newer construction if I could find it, and I would probably target a four unit residential property. I’d probably put three and a half percent down lowest rates with that. FHA, I would leverage my money, and I would get three other tenants in units, two, three and four to pay my mortgage, and then I’d use the rest to go buy an investment property
Keith Weinhold 8:32
much like I started out with the owner occupied four Plex, live in one unit, rent out the other three. FHA, three and a half percent down. What if someone, however, lives in a market where the numbers just don’t work and the law really tilts toward the tenant rather than the landlord.
Caeli Ridge 8:47
You know, that’s a good point. There’s a lot of factors, obviously, right? And there’s exceptions to all rules, etc. So I don’t want to generalize, but I would probably take the 100,000 and maybe look at some kind of a burr in that case, maybe pivot and do some math and see if buy rehab rent refi might be more applicable. To take that 100 grand and leverage it that dollar bill, as far as I could make it go
Keith Weinhold 9:10
sometimes you have to get scrappy when you’re starting out another what would you do now? Say you’ve got some more experience. You already own two rentals. How do you scale that to 10.
Caeli Ridge 9:21
You know, my biggest piece of advice for investors, especially newer ish investors, is to make sure that you’ve got your eye on some level of diversification. Scaling from two to 10 can sound pretty daunting to some people, but I think that diversification advice comes in handy when you’re not singularly focused on, let’s say, a core philosophy of single family, residence, cash flow only in one market instead, maybe layer in some appreciating markets where you can earn and count on longer burn appreciation that you can then leverage from to then purchase the next to the next to the next, right. Cash. Refinances borrowed funds are non taxable. I would probably say diversification is the core answer to that question. For me,
Keith Weinhold 10:07
yeah, if you’ve already got two properties, maybe if you’ve had those for a few years, yes, you can do a cash out refinance and basically use one of your first two properties to fund that third and fourth and so on, right exactly? How about if rates drop 1% tomorrow? What’s the next thing you would do? Immediately?
Caeli Ridge 10:29
I would do the math. Is what I would do, Keith, and I know you love that answer. So if I had a portfolio of X number of properties and rates just dropped 1% tomorrow, I would take a hard look at what I had in the queue, and I would say, Okay, how much does a one percentage point rate save me in monthly payment, aka, earn me in cash flow, and what is it going to cost me? It is imperative that the investor is actually doing the math. 1% may sound amazing, but if it’s only going to save you 5060, bucks a month, and maybe that’s enough, but it might cost you five grand. Does that math work for you? So that’s my answer. Do the math?
Keith Weinhold 11:08
Yeah, if rates drop 1% does that make you want to perform more purchases? Does that make you want to refi something that you already have and at the same time that you do that refinance? Okay? That may or may not save you a lot in payment. But another consideration is, okay, well, at the same time you do that refinance, oh, maybe you could take cash out and use it as a down payment for another property, or just use that money for something else,
Caeli Ridge 11:33
absolutely, and you know what we’re talking about. That from a purchase perspective, if rates drop 1% tomorrow, from an investment perspective, what do we think is going to happen to the rest of the market? The homeowners are going to be coming out of the woodwork, right? The owner occupied the competition is going to get very, very stiff, steep. I would say that if you are banking on or waiting for rates to do X, Y and Z, you are missing massive opportunities today. So there’s a lot of reasons not to hesitate and be waiting on some magic, massive rate drop.
Keith Weinhold 12:04
All right. Well, those were three interesting what would you do scenarios you mentioned the possibility, and it’s surely only a possibility that mortgage rates will drop sometime in the near future. Let’s expand on that. If someone is indeed waiting for rates to drop. What are they risking in the meantime?
Caeli Ridge 12:25
You know, this is such a good but complicated question. There’s a lot of layers to this. If someone has a magic number in their head, again, I’m going to press back and say you have to be doing the math. All right. So a lot of people conveniently, maybe not so conveniently. But a lot of people forget that interest rates, by nature, always drop or reduce much slower than they’re going to climb. Okay, historically, go back and do your own research here. Interest rates, when they go up, they tend to kind of go up quickly. When they come down, they really kind of trail, and it’s a slow, progressive landing. It’s not a quick thing when they come down. So if we know that that’s true, or at least historically, that’s been true an interest rate reduction of an eighth or a quarter or three, it’s of a point. Maybe that takes us a month or two or six or a year. What does that really mean to that payment? You have to be doing the math so, largely dependent on the loan amount. Okay, if you think that interest rates are going to be reduced in a month from now by a quarter of a percentage point, what does that mean to the payment? Does it mean $12 a month? Does it mean $100 a month? And in that scenario, in that calculation, what are you giving up by waiting the month or two or six for a what if I think that you are diminishing your rates of return by waiting on a come that one may never happen, and two, the significance is probably far less relevant than you are giving it credit for.
Keith Weinhold 13:52
Now, I think generally real estate investors want low mortgage rates. Obviously, it gives us a better refinance opportunity. It gives us a better purchase opportunity, potentially, okay. In general, we want lower rates. However, there are some reasons a lot of people don’t think about as to why lower mortgage rates are actually bad for a real estate investor. If you just look historically, when have we had extraordinary low mortgage rates here in these past 20 years? Well, they’ve been to get us out of huge economic problems, late to global financial crisis or the covid pandemic. So if you’re wishing for really rock bottom rates, which again, is tempting to do, and is advantageous, in a sense, there is a downside as well. If there are super low rates, a lot of people might be out of work, including your tenants. So that’s the reason that we want to be careful as to what we wish for, with rates being super low and artificially low, like they were a couple times in the past two decades. And you know, Caeli another reason why I’m not fully in love. With low mortgage rates, although I liked them, is the fact that I look back and notice as being a property investor for more than two decades now, is that I have had tenants leave when mortgage rates are too low and lending is too easy, especially leading up to the global financial crisis, it was so easy to get first time homebuyer loans at really attractive rates. So I had higher vacancy because mortgage rates were so low that my tenants left and became first time homeowners. So yes, we generally want lower mortgage rates, but there is a downside to that as well.
Caeli Ridge 15:35
And I think there’s probably a sweet spot, I think such a good point that most people probably don’t think about Keith, and I couldn’t agree more, when rates have been at their lowest. To your point, all hell is breaking loose economically in so many other sectors. Yeah, be careful what you wish for.
Keith Weinhold 15:51
Any old time, real estate investor would find it really humorous and almost cute that people think mortgage rates between six and 7% are high. You and I know they’re historically low. 7.7% is the long term owner occupied, 30 year fixed mortgage rate going back to 1971 per Freddie Mac the most reliable stat set that we have. But now that we have come up back into what’s really a more normal range, just like we started to do in 2022 How should someone think overall in not a high but a higher mortgage rate environment? What are some things that actually matter more now than they did before back five plus years ago?
Caeli Ridge 16:32
I want to give you some statistics. So from 1990 to now, the average owner occupied rate was 6.08 now that’s owner occupied, and more often than not, you can add about a point percentage point spread between that and non owner occupied in general. So we are right in line with the last 36 year swing of where interest rates have been. So please keep that in mind. Again, that psychology piece. But overall, I think that what we need to be paying attention to, even if, over the last five years, 10 years, interest rates are a little bit higher than we came to recognize them, the pandemic was an outlier. You guys. Okay, let that lie that’s hopefully never to repeat itself. But what we want to be focusing on, and I know that I’m beating a dead horse here, is that you have to get rid of the mental block that you have about that number that we call an interest rate. You need to be looking at a property holistically that says, does it cash flow based on this tenant application? What about this tenant application? What is my exit strategy? Is my property management doing the job that it needs to be doing? Can I trust them to ensure that my vacancy is low? And if I have to evict somebody that they know what they’re doing and they know all the rules in the different cities and counties, I think that those are going to be more prevalent to the successful real estate transaction that gives you the financial freedom that you want long term, stop fixating on the rate. That’s my advice.
Keith Weinhold 17:53
Some of those operations that you talked about are controllable, and the mortgage rate is largely uncontrollable outside of maybe getting a better credit score to get a lower rate or something like that, focus more on what you can control. And Caeli, you touched on something interesting that I think a lot of people don’t understand, and that is investor financing versus owner occupant financing. A lot of people just don’t understand the differences as to why investor loans cost more, tell us about that.
Caeli Ridge 18:25
Yeah, good question. It happens to be about secondary markets, so I won’t get too technical, but when we talk about mortgage backed securities right Wall Street, and this is an asset class that is bought and sold and traded, etc, etc, there are demands, obviously, and then you’ve got layers of risk. So the baseline thinking is that an owner occupant is less likely to default on the home that they live in, right? Something is going on financially with them. They’ve got some hardships, etc. They’re going to cut loose the rental property before they’re going to default on their primary so that’s just kind of the overall basic. There’s other variables in there, but that’s the one that makes the biggest difference. Is default rates on an owner occupied versus a non owner occupied. Now I may argue, if I can just add to this. So this is a little bit of a history lesson for those that maybe remember or too young to remember this. 08, 09, housing and lending implode on each other in this country, the financial crisis, et cetera, et cetera. It was the Wild West before that. You could have a pulse and get a mortgage, even investors right, 0% down. They had some pretty risky things out there. We didn’t do that kind of stuff, but they were out there, and I certainly contributed to what happened with the oh eight financial crisis. So fast forward, and I feel like when things like that, especially in this country, happen and devastate big, huge sectors of our economy, we knee jerk. And we knee jerk in a way that is almost the 180 of irresponsibility. Let me explain so when we talk about what it used to be like, fogging a mirror, right, having a pulse and getting a loan as an investor or anyone. For that matter. Now fast forward to post, 08,09, you’ve got Dodd Frank, all that sweeping legislation, etc, they raised the qualification bar. Okay, that’s fine. Now I want to come into today’s space, and I want to give you guys an idea of the qualification markers between an owner occupied let’s just use an FHA and a non owner occupied purchase. So you can have 580 credit and put three and a half percent down and have slightly over a 50% debt to income ratio and get an FHA loan, a GSE government sponsored enterprise loan. All right, a non owner occupied you’ve got to walk on water. Man, I make that dumb joke, files of blood and DNA samples, you’ve got 20 25% down minimum. You’ve got to have x higher in credit score, all these extra reserves, etc, etc. So I would argue that secondary mentality, thinking the non owner occupied is, in my opinion, probably a more stable loan as it relates to default. So there’s some disconnect. I think that the way that that is thought about in secondary market speak, but maybe a little TMI for the listeners. In any case, that’s the reason that they’re looked at differently. The ideal, or the idea is, is that the owner occupied is less likely to default than the non owner occupied. I would disagree with that premise,
Keith Weinhold 21:19
and I think you would agree that things are still pretty tight because lending requirements are still pretty rigid, still pretty strict. You have to have a good credit history and assets and income, unlike what we had to have 20 years ago, when I was a real estate investor myself, back when things were irresponsible and back when things were free flowing, and money was flying, and a lot of nefarious things were happening. Even though I had a good credit score all my life, I was the beneficiary of those High Flying Wild West times myself. I remember on the first four Plex I owned after I had moved out of it so I didn’t even occupy it anymore, I got a generous appraisal for a 90% combined loan to value, cash out, refinance 90% that I would not get today, no way.
Caeli Ridge 22:10
Yeah, but that knee jerk is, I think, also part of the problem. They go the opposite way that pendulum shift is, I feel like there needs to be a little bit more reasonability in the mix and different markers to justify who should be getting or being able to take advantage.
Keith Weinhold 22:26
When we talk about investor loans versus owner occupied loans, that really begs the question. Now, when does it make sense to house hack versus go straight into investor loans? What are some of the trade offs there.
Caeli Ridge 22:41
I would argue that if you are in a position and you’re willing to share your primary residence with you know, tenants house hack is always a great idea, because you’ve got these great loan terms, you’ve got this massive leverage, and almost always you’ve got other people making the entire mortgage payment for you, or the vast majority of that mortgage payment, I’m such a big fan of that is a strategy for real estate investing. You’ve got to do it right. You got to do it by the rules. But I can’t think of a downside if you qualify and you’re willing to do that, to live with other people right next door, etc, etc. Some families don’t think that that works for them, whatever, but I just think it’s a fantastic way to jumpstart someone’s real estate investment journey and then continue it. If you do it right every 12 months, then you’ll be able to continue to parlay into the next, the next, the next. One thing I would say about that that I don’t get a lot of opportunity to talk about, but since we’re talking about here, if you’re going to house hack and you’ve got, you know, a duplex, triplex fourplex, and you want to manage it yourself, which I think everybody should be responsible to manage at least one rental property in their lifetime, maybe official, yeah, yeah. More often than not, people will tend to pay for that service down the road. But having the experience is valuable. Do not tell the other tenants that you are the home owner, do yourself a favor and just you’re another tenant, but you’re taking care of you know, you don’t want to let them know that you actually own the property. There’s lots of emotional and different things that you want to avoid giving that information away to the tenants.
Keith Weinhold 24:17
I have had two friends, and each friend owned a fourplex, and what they did is they would manage the other person’s fourplex. That way, they were able to keep it more professional and less emotional, since it wasn’t the owner directly dealing with the tenant, and that provided a buffer that really benefited them. I haven’t done that myself, but I found that such an interesting way to approach it?
Caeli Ridge 24:42
Yeah, that’s smart. If that ends up being your situation, definitely horse trade that way. Otherwise, you’re just a tenant and you can be on call whatever, just avoid giving that information back to the other tenants that may be there.
Keith Weinhold 24:54
Well, there’s an underwriting reality out there that chili can share with us versus. Some of the online advice that you get, and what some of the biggest myths are that borrowers believe. We’ll talk about that next. You’re listening to get rich education. Our guest is Ridge lending Group President chailey Ridge, more we come back. I’m your host. Keith Weinhold.
Keith Weinhold 25:12
Flock homes helps you retire from real estate and landlording, whether it’s one problem property or your whole portfolio through a 721 exchange, deferring your capital gains tax and depreciation recapture. It’s a strategy long used by the ultra wealthy. Now Mom and Pop landlords can 721 the residential real estate request your initial valuation, see if your properties qualify@flockhomes.com slash, slash GRE, that’s F, l, O, C, K, homes.com/gre
Keith Weinhold 25:47
the same place where I get my own mortgage loans is where you can get yours. Ridge lending group and MLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than anyone because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. Start your prequel and even chat with President chailey Ridge personally. While it’s on your mind, start at Ridge lending group.com that’s Ridge lending group.com
Ted Sutton 26:22
Hey, it’s corporate directs Ted Sutton, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don’t quit your Daydream.
Keith Weinhold 26:29
Welcome back to get Rich’s case, we’re talking with a familiar and recurrent guest Ridge lending group, President Caeli Ridge Kelly, talk to us about your underwriting reality there, versus some of the advice that one gets online sometimes, including what really gets a loan approved with some of those things like income and reserves and DTI.
Caeli Ridge 26:59
You know, this can be so confusing for the consumer, because there are so many different vehicles in which to get Mortgage Funding, and there’s something in our industry called an overlay. Okay, an overlay is taking the purest form of a guideline and adding layers of risk to it. I’ll give you an example. Let’s say that we know, or most of us know that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac allow for up to 10 finance properties per qualified individual, right? That is a straight Fannie Freddie guideline B of A, and this could be wrong, but a big boy bank may have an overlay and layers of risk that say we will only allow up to four, right? So all of this differing information, conflicting information, when the nice thing with ridges is that we go by the purest form of the guideline, we are not going to impose those overlays. So in working with us, you’re always going to be sure that we know exactly what those guidelines are. We know them like our own faces, and that we’re not going to impose some additional risk layering or overlay that might prohibit or preclude the qualification. It’s pretty basic stuff. I mean, if you’re going full doc, Fannie Freddie, and this can apply to our owner occupied and, of course, all of our non owner occupied income, debt to income, credit and assets, it’s a pretty basic formula that we use. And then we’ve got all the other products that we have. Again, knowing those underwriting guidelines like the back of our hand, is very important to making sure that we can navigate the battleship in a creek. That’s the analogy that I give that tends to be mortgage lending, or what feels like mortgage lending anyway. So it’s pretty basic. We have to understand what the borrower’s qualifications are out of the gate, and then we can provide them with a schematic of options that they can tell us which direction they want to go in
Keith Weinhold 28:42
for quite a long time now, one could get 10 conventional investor loans, single or 20 married. It wasn’t always that way. I remember attending a real estate workshop in 2012 and you could only get four loans, or at least you could only easily get four investor loans before that expanded to 10. And we just shouldn’t always assume that it’s going to be this way forever.
Caeli Ridge 29:06
Yeah, so I kind of going back before 08,09, there was no limit to the number of finance properties Fannie and Freddie would secure per individual. After that crash, it shut off, and it got to four to your point. And then it stayed there for a while, until we kind of brought it back to that 10. You know, there’s been rumors for years that they’re going to up it to 12 or 15 or some random number. I don’t even know where it’s coming from. I always make a joke and say, Yeah, between now and my death, we’ll see that. But it would be nice. It would be nice if they increase that number a few
Keith Weinhold 29:35
now, as someone is qualifying there, you probably run into a lot of borrowers that believe certain myths or have to have misconceptions corrected. Tell us about some of those
Caeli Ridge 29:45
the biggest myths, I’m going to say that it’s probably one of three things they believe that they’ve got to make 10s of 1000s of dollars a month or hundreds of 1000s of dollars a year to qualify. Absolutely not true. It’s so much less about the monthly. Income than it is the monthly income in relation to your minimum payments on your credit report. So just as an example, I could have a client that only shows $1,000 a month of income, but if they truly have no debt and some of the other qualifying criteria, they can qualify for a mortgage on an investment property, because the investment property has income to offset that mortgage payment. So it dispel the myth about having massive amounts of monthly income. That’s not necessary. It’s about the income and your monthly debt that we find on your credit report. That would be the first thing. The other thing, speaking of credit reports, I would say, is that a lot of times, people think that the overall debt that they’re carrying matters. I mean, Mr. Jones could have $300,000 worth of debt, but his monthly payments are only 1500 All I care about is that monthly amount. I do not care what the total outstanding debt is. I hear that one a lot inquiries, credit inquiries. Every time you have your credit pulled, it drops the score, 20 points. Not the case. Now I can go down that rabbit hole, Keith, but it is a rabbit hole, so maybe I’ll just leave it there. Your credit score does not drop X number every time you have your credit pulled. That’s a misnomer.
Keith Weinhold 31:07
Well, actually, that brings up a thought. Then once prospective borrower initiates with you in there and gets the ball rolling in qualifying for a loan, what are some reasons that deals die late in the process? So what does it take to be sure to hold that together?
Caeli Ridge 31:23
You know, I think it all boils down to communication. And we tell our clients this on the front end, treat us like your attorney. You tell us everything, do not own anything, so that we can ensure that we’re guiding you appropriately. So lack of information can derail things. Let’s say, for example, they change jobs, and it’s a completely new line of work, and it could prohibit or preclude the amount of income that we could have we were using now DTI gets changed, or they buy a new car in the middle, and they don’t think it’s going to come up. And now it’s a DTI issue. It can be all kinds of things, but the point there is communication is key. Just keep us informed, and then we will give you the input or advice, and then you do what you want with that. But at least it’s not once the bell is rung.
Keith Weinhold 32:05
Live pretty conservatively and safely until that loan closes. Yes, sir. Well, does that bring up any stories? Sometimes people learn better that way. Is there a deal? Perhaps that should have worked, but it didn’t.
Caeli Ridge 32:20
That’s a good question. You know, I think that the answer is no, and mostly because we have such a diverse menu of loan products, even if something did happen and even if it was outside of anyone’s control, let’s say we would normally just pivot to another loan product that would accommodate whatever that event ended up being. I cannot think of an example where a deal fell apart that could have gone differently, that we weren’t able to just simply pivot into another path and close the loan for
Keith Weinhold 32:49
well, America is a place that promotes entrepreneurship, and it seems like side hustles as well are more popular than they’ve been before. So can you talk to us about how self employed borrowers get evaluated?
Caeli Ridge 33:04
Yeah, it is different. I mean, the simplest way to describe it is, we’re going to take the adjusted gross income, but there are something called add backs. So depending on what their deductions are, there are certain things like Depreciation or Amortization or, I mean, there’s a whole slew of things that we’re able to take those numbers and add it back into the Adjusted Gross and then divide by 12 or 24 whatever it needs to be. That’s typically what we’re going to be looking at for a self employed person, versus the straight w2 is just the gross income divided by 12 months.
Keith Weinhold 33:35
Well, Caeli, this has been really good with some strategies and some actionable tactics. Before I ask how one can learn more about ridge? Is there any last thing that you’d like to share with us, whether that’s to expand on anything we discussed, or any of the more nascent things that have happened, like banks holding less in capital reserves, or Fannie Mae, except in crypto back mortgages? Is there anything else we really ought to know?
Caeli Ridge 33:57
You know, I think my advice right now for anybody that is in real estate investing, thinking about getting into real estate investing, be informed. Listen to people like Keith, ideally, listen to people like me. I’ve been doing this for a very, very long time. I’m an educator at heart. Get your information from sources that you can trust, and try to avoid the analysis paralysis the best you can. I know that people get hung up on that, but now is the best time ever, and I would say that tomorrow and the next day and next year and the year after that, to invest in real estate.
Keith Weinhold 34:27
Yes, the only thing that could possibly make now better than ever is now is sooner than it’s ever going to be again. Well, Caeli, if someone wants to get a hold of ridge so they can tell you their situation, and you can then help them find out how you can best help. What should they do?
Caeli Ridge 34:43
There’s so many ways. Check out our website, ridgelinengroup.com you can email us info@ridgelinengroup.com you can call us toll free at 855, 74, Ridge. All of those ways get to us, and I look forward to speaking with each and every one of you
Keith Weinhold 34:58
that’s been valuable. Always It’s been great having you here.
Caeli Ridge 35:01
Thanks. Keith
Keith Weinhold 35:08
Caeli brought up a great point from the lender’s view, when they make a loan, it might be safer for them to lend on an income property loan, actually, than it is for your own home, because on the income property, you have a substantially higher qualification bar to clear, and you have to make a higher down payment on it. I hadn’t thought about it that way before. As far as Fannie Mae accepting crypto backed mortgage structures, that is still new as of this year. How it works with a crypto backed mortgage is that you’re usually getting two loans. First you get a normal mortgage, and then for your down payment, it’s a separate loan that’s backed by your crypto. Your crypto stays locked up for years and you can’t trade it while it’s pledged as your home down payment. That’s generally how it works. But notice the attraction. You would also get to keep your crypto while you’re leveraging it. Also notice the risk there, and very few banks offer this, think Coinbase and not JPMorgan Chase. It’s still new and niche, and it remains to be seen whether or not crypto backed loans will gain any real traction. It’s only likely going to accept Bitcoin, Ethereum or stablecoins, not altcoins. Only about 1% of homebuyers use crypto in transactions. Most of what the current presidential administration has done focuses on making mortgages easier to get, not in making homes cheaper. Making mortgages easier to get means more bidders and higher prices. Washington can make it easier to get a mortgage, but they cannot make a $400,000 property cost $300,000 we talked about how to borrow to win today, and big thanks to our terrific guest. Until next week, I’m your host. Keith Weinhold, though you might quit your day job, don’t quit your Daydream.
Speaker 2 37:17
Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice, please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively you
Keith Weinhold 37:45
The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, get richeducation.com
Keith explores how real estate investors can use mortgage strategies to build long-term wealth.
Seasoned lending expert and repeat guest Caeli Ridge joins Keith to discuss why debt isn’t something to avoid but to optimize, and how negotiating terms can matter more than price. They walk through practical approaches for new and experienced investors, from house hacking to scaling a rental portfolio. The conversation also tackles common myths about qualifying for investment property loans and what really matters to lenders.
Finally, they emphasize focusing on fundamentals—cash flow, risk management, and informed decision-making—rather than fixating on interest rate headlines.
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Complete episode transcript:
Keith Weinhold 0:01
Welcome to GRE I’m your host. Keith Weinhold Some mortgage guidance out there is costing you wealth today. I’m talking about how you can negotiate to get better terms. I’ll tell you the exact questions to ask. Then a guest clears up mortgage myths and misconceptions and how you can borrow to win today on get rich education
Keith Weinhold 0:28
let me ask you something, if you’ve worked hard to build wealth, is your money positioned to actually support your goals? A lot of accredited investors leave capital sitting in cash because it feels safe, but inflation and missed income opportunities can quietly erode its value. Freedom family investments offers freedom notes for investors seeking structured income backed by real estate. It’s a straightforward approach built on real assets, not speculation and full disclosure. I’m an investor myself. What I like is that their team walks you through how it all works so you can decide if it aligns with your portfolio and income goals. Every investment carries risk and nothing is guaranteed, but with a track record of consistent on time investor payouts, they built real credibility. Go to freedomfamilyinvestments.com to book a clarity call or text family to 66 866, that’s family to 6866
Speaker 1 1:32
you’re listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.
Keith Weinhold 1:48
Welcome to GRE from Albany, New York to Albany, Oregon and across 188 nations worldwide. You’re listening to get rich Education. I’m your host. Keith Weinhold, as we know, debt isn’t something to avoid. It’s something to optimize. As a real estate investor, I would rather have lower mortgage rates than higher ones, and now you can call me Captain Obvious. Yet there are some reasons that higher mortgage rates benefit us as investors, though they’re not as great as the lower rates are I’ll discuss some of that today. This stuff obviously influences marketplace behavior. In fact, here we are now, years after rates made their historic surge and nearly tripled between 2022 and 2023 and yet still, 70% of mortgage borrowers have an astoundingly rock bottom rate below 5% today, lower than the ocean floor, and they won’t sell those properties. That’s just one contributor to the low supply hangover that still lingers. Are today’s buyers still anchored to an unrealistic baseline. It certainly reframed how investors think about normal borrowing costs and what that word normal means. My first ever rental property, many years ago, was purchased at a 30 year fixed rate of six and three eighths percent. One year later, I got to refinance a full 1% lower at five and three eighths. I’m happy that I bought one I did because starting year earlier, got all my real estate benefits rolling that much sooner, the leverage and everything else, and when I did that, refinance many years ago, from six and three eighths down to five and three eighths, I was able to roll all of my loan refinance costs into the new mortgage balance, and that way I didn’t have to pay anything out of pocket. So financing is negotiable. A lot of investors don’t realize that buy down your rate if you want roll the loan costs into the loan amount, like I did. In fact, I would usually rather have a higher mortgage rate and then not have to come out of pocket at the table. I would rather do it that way. Sometimes I take a higher rate and even get cash back at the closing table. So I walk away from the closing table with a property and cash, but yet with a bigger mortgage. And what’s the strategy there? Well, with more inevitable Inflation, I want to load up on the dollars that I get now and then make those paybacks over the long term with future cheaper, diluted dollars for 360 months, sometimes I don’t have to ask the lender for any sort of favor to get that zero help from the lender at the closing table to get cash back. How do I do that? Well, I ask the seller to give me cash at the closing. Closing table in return for offering the seller full asking price, or sometimes even over the asking price. I have done it the strategy of offering full price or even a little more than the full list price. See, that’s often easier than getting a price cut from the seller, and that works great, because getting the closing table, cash is going to benefit you more than the price cut would anyway, in almost every circumstance, and when it comes to your lender, ask them questions that cut through the noise. Now, lenders have to make their profits somewhere and stay in business, but I’ve asked the question, what’s the break even point on this rate buy down. That’s something you can ask today. That can be an even better question for you to ask of builders with all of the buy downs that they’re doing for you now, most people know about a mortgage rate lock. That’s when you’re in contract to buy a property. At some point, you and your mortgage company, you lock in your rate for, say, 30 to 60 days, and that way, if the rate rises before the deal is completed, you are protected. You are locked in. But some lenders also offer float downs. That’s for if you lock and then rates go lower before you get the deal closed. In that case, you get the lower rate, and now you successfully played both sides, but most borrowers don’t know to ask about a float down for larger apartment buildings, sometimes you can negotiate away prepayment penalties or instead a shorter penalty window. The thing to keep in mind is that smallest borrowers negotiate price, but savvy investors negotiate structure. That’s what we’re talking about here, and that’s why you often hear that terms are more important than price. So there’s plenty of opportunity here, even if historically low rates is not where today’s opportunity lies. Today, we’re going to discuss some things about mortgages that most people believe but are just flat out wrong. Also, what separates the borrowers who build real estate portfolios from the ones who stay stuck on property one, let’s have a conversation with this week’s repeat guest, a real favorite here at GRE for her mortgage clarity.
Keith Weinhold 7:35
Hey, the president of ridge lending group, Chaley Ridge is back with us. We’ll get into things like rates and loan strategy shortly, but first, let’s discuss some fun. What would you do? Chili, what would you do if you’re 35 and have 100k to invest in real estate? What’s your first move? Ooh, good question.
Caeli Ridge 7:55
So let’s think five years ago for me now I’m 35 what would I do if I had that was a joke for all you listeners, obviously, you know, I think that if I could go back and knowing what I know now, I would probably invest that into an owner occupied house hack using an FHA loan. Probably look for newer construction if I could find it, and I would probably target a four unit residential property. I’d probably put three and a half percent down lowest rates with that. FHA, I would leverage my money, and I would get three other tenants in units, two, three and four to pay my mortgage, and then I’d use the rest to go buy an investment property
Keith Weinhold 8:32
much like I started out with the owner occupied four Plex, live in one unit, rent out the other three. FHA, three and a half percent down. What if someone, however, lives in a market where the numbers just don’t work and the law really tilts toward the tenant rather than the landlord.
Caeli Ridge 8:47
You know, that’s a good point. There’s a lot of factors, obviously, right? And there’s exceptions to all rules, etc. So I don’t want to generalize, but I would probably take the 100,000 and maybe look at some kind of a burr in that case, maybe pivot and do some math and see if buy rehab rent refi might be more applicable. To take that 100 grand and leverage it that dollar bill, as far as I could make it go
Keith Weinhold 9:10
sometimes you have to get scrappy when you’re starting out another what would you do now? Say you’ve got some more experience. You already own two rentals. How do you scale that to 10.
Caeli Ridge 9:21
You know, my biggest piece of advice for investors, especially newer ish investors, is to make sure that you’ve got your eye on some level of diversification. Scaling from two to 10 can sound pretty daunting to some people, but I think that diversification advice comes in handy when you’re not singularly focused on, let’s say, a core philosophy of single family, residence, cash flow only in one market instead, maybe layer in some appreciating markets where you can earn and count on longer burn appreciation that you can then leverage from to then purchase the next to the next to the next, right. Cash. Refinances borrowed funds are non taxable. I would probably say diversification is the core answer to that question. For me,
Keith Weinhold 10:07
yeah, if you’ve already got two properties, maybe if you’ve had those for a few years, yes, you can do a cash out refinance and basically use one of your first two properties to fund that third and fourth and so on, right exactly? How about if rates drop 1% tomorrow? What’s the next thing you would do? Immediately?
Caeli Ridge 10:29
I would do the math. Is what I would do, Keith, and I know you love that answer. So if I had a portfolio of X number of properties and rates just dropped 1% tomorrow, I would take a hard look at what I had in the queue, and I would say, Okay, how much does a one percentage point rate save me in monthly payment, aka, earn me in cash flow, and what is it going to cost me? It is imperative that the investor is actually doing the math. 1% may sound amazing, but if it’s only going to save you 5060, bucks a month, and maybe that’s enough, but it might cost you five grand. Does that math work for you? So that’s my answer. Do the math?
Keith Weinhold 11:08
Yeah, if rates drop 1% does that make you want to perform more purchases? Does that make you want to refi something that you already have and at the same time that you do that refinance? Okay? That may or may not save you a lot in payment. But another consideration is, okay, well, at the same time you do that refinance, oh, maybe you could take cash out and use it as a down payment for another property, or just use that money for something else,
Caeli Ridge 11:33
absolutely, and you know what we’re talking about. That from a purchase perspective, if rates drop 1% tomorrow, from an investment perspective, what do we think is going to happen to the rest of the market? The homeowners are going to be coming out of the woodwork, right? The owner occupied the competition is going to get very, very stiff, steep. I would say that if you are banking on or waiting for rates to do X, Y and Z, you are missing massive opportunities today. So there’s a lot of reasons not to hesitate and be waiting on some magic, massive rate drop.
Keith Weinhold 12:04
All right. Well, those were three interesting what would you do scenarios you mentioned the possibility, and it’s surely only a possibility that mortgage rates will drop sometime in the near future. Let’s expand on that. If someone is indeed waiting for rates to drop. What are they risking in the meantime?
Caeli Ridge 12:25
You know, this is such a good but complicated question. There’s a lot of layers to this. If someone has a magic number in their head, again, I’m going to press back and say you have to be doing the math. All right. So a lot of people conveniently, maybe not so conveniently. But a lot of people forget that interest rates, by nature, always drop or reduce much slower than they’re going to climb. Okay, historically, go back and do your own research here. Interest rates, when they go up, they tend to kind of go up quickly. When they come down, they really kind of trail, and it’s a slow, progressive landing. It’s not a quick thing when they come down. So if we know that that’s true, or at least historically, that’s been true an interest rate reduction of an eighth or a quarter or three, it’s of a point. Maybe that takes us a month or two or six or a year. What does that really mean to that payment? You have to be doing the math so, largely dependent on the loan amount. Okay, if you think that interest rates are going to be reduced in a month from now by a quarter of a percentage point, what does that mean to the payment? Does it mean $12 a month? Does it mean $100 a month? And in that scenario, in that calculation, what are you giving up by waiting the month or two or six for a what if I think that you are diminishing your rates of return by waiting on a come that one may never happen, and two, the significance is probably far less relevant than you are giving it credit for.
Keith Weinhold 13:52
Now, I think generally real estate investors want low mortgage rates. Obviously, it gives us a better refinance opportunity. It gives us a better purchase opportunity, potentially, okay. In general, we want lower rates. However, there are some reasons a lot of people don’t think about as to why lower mortgage rates are actually bad for a real estate investor. If you just look historically, when have we had extraordinary low mortgage rates here in these past 20 years? Well, they’ve been to get us out of huge economic problems, late to global financial crisis or the covid pandemic. So if you’re wishing for really rock bottom rates, which again, is tempting to do, and is advantageous, in a sense, there is a downside as well. If there are super low rates, a lot of people might be out of work, including your tenants. So that’s the reason that we want to be careful as to what we wish for, with rates being super low and artificially low, like they were a couple times in the past two decades. And you know, Caeli another reason why I’m not fully in love. With low mortgage rates, although I liked them, is the fact that I look back and notice as being a property investor for more than two decades now, is that I have had tenants leave when mortgage rates are too low and lending is too easy, especially leading up to the global financial crisis, it was so easy to get first time homebuyer loans at really attractive rates. So I had higher vacancy because mortgage rates were so low that my tenants left and became first time homeowners. So yes, we generally want lower mortgage rates, but there is a downside to that as well.
Caeli Ridge 15:35
And I think there’s probably a sweet spot, I think such a good point that most people probably don’t think about Keith, and I couldn’t agree more, when rates have been at their lowest. To your point, all hell is breaking loose economically in so many other sectors. Yeah, be careful what you wish for.
Keith Weinhold 15:51
Any old time, real estate investor would find it really humorous and almost cute that people think mortgage rates between six and 7% are high. You and I know they’re historically low. 7.7% is the long term owner occupied, 30 year fixed mortgage rate going back to 1971 per Freddie Mac the most reliable stat set that we have. But now that we have come up back into what’s really a more normal range, just like we started to do in 2022 How should someone think overall in not a high but a higher mortgage rate environment? What are some things that actually matter more now than they did before back five plus years ago?
Caeli Ridge 16:32
I want to give you some statistics. So from 1990 to now, the average owner occupied rate was 6.08 now that’s owner occupied, and more often than not, you can add about a point percentage point spread between that and non owner occupied in general. So we are right in line with the last 36 year swing of where interest rates have been. So please keep that in mind. Again, that psychology piece. But overall, I think that what we need to be paying attention to, even if, over the last five years, 10 years, interest rates are a little bit higher than we came to recognize them, the pandemic was an outlier. You guys. Okay, let that lie that’s hopefully never to repeat itself. But what we want to be focusing on, and I know that I’m beating a dead horse here, is that you have to get rid of the mental block that you have about that number that we call an interest rate. You need to be looking at a property holistically that says, does it cash flow based on this tenant application? What about this tenant application? What is my exit strategy? Is my property management doing the job that it needs to be doing? Can I trust them to ensure that my vacancy is low? And if I have to evict somebody that they know what they’re doing and they know all the rules in the different cities and counties, I think that those are going to be more prevalent to the successful real estate transaction that gives you the financial freedom that you want long term, stop fixating on the rate. That’s my advice.
Keith Weinhold 17:53
Some of those operations that you talked about are controllable, and the mortgage rate is largely uncontrollable outside of maybe getting a better credit score to get a lower rate or something like that, focus more on what you can control. And Caeli, you touched on something interesting that I think a lot of people don’t understand, and that is investor financing versus owner occupant financing. A lot of people just don’t understand the differences as to why investor loans cost more, tell us about that.
Caeli Ridge 18:25
Yeah, good question. It happens to be about secondary markets, so I won’t get too technical, but when we talk about mortgage backed securities right Wall Street, and this is an asset class that is bought and sold and traded, etc, etc, there are demands, obviously, and then you’ve got layers of risk. So the baseline thinking is that an owner occupant is less likely to default on the home that they live in, right? Something is going on financially with them. They’ve got some hardships, etc. They’re going to cut loose the rental property before they’re going to default on their primary so that’s just kind of the overall basic. There’s other variables in there, but that’s the one that makes the biggest difference. Is default rates on an owner occupied versus a non owner occupied. Now I may argue, if I can just add to this. So this is a little bit of a history lesson for those that maybe remember or too young to remember this. 08, 09, housing and lending implode on each other in this country, the financial crisis, et cetera, et cetera. It was the Wild West before that. You could have a pulse and get a mortgage, even investors right, 0% down. They had some pretty risky things out there. We didn’t do that kind of stuff, but they were out there, and I certainly contributed to what happened with the oh eight financial crisis. So fast forward, and I feel like when things like that, especially in this country, happen and devastate big, huge sectors of our economy, we knee jerk. And we knee jerk in a way that is almost the 180 of irresponsibility. Let me explain so when we talk about what it used to be like, fogging a mirror, right, having a pulse and getting a loan as an investor or anyone. For that matter. Now fast forward to post, 08,09, you’ve got Dodd Frank, all that sweeping legislation, etc, they raised the qualification bar. Okay, that’s fine. Now I want to come into today’s space, and I want to give you guys an idea of the qualification markers between an owner occupied let’s just use an FHA and a non owner occupied purchase. So you can have 580 credit and put three and a half percent down and have slightly over a 50% debt to income ratio and get an FHA loan, a GSE government sponsored enterprise loan. All right, a non owner occupied you’ve got to walk on water. Man, I make that dumb joke, files of blood and DNA samples, you’ve got 20 25% down minimum. You’ve got to have x higher in credit score, all these extra reserves, etc, etc. So I would argue that secondary mentality, thinking the non owner occupied is, in my opinion, probably a more stable loan as it relates to default. So there’s some disconnect. I think that the way that that is thought about in secondary market speak, but maybe a little TMI for the listeners. In any case, that’s the reason that they’re looked at differently. The ideal, or the idea is, is that the owner occupied is less likely to default than the non owner occupied. I would disagree with that premise,
Keith Weinhold 21:19
and I think you would agree that things are still pretty tight because lending requirements are still pretty rigid, still pretty strict. You have to have a good credit history and assets and income, unlike what we had to have 20 years ago, when I was a real estate investor myself, back when things were irresponsible and back when things were free flowing, and money was flying, and a lot of nefarious things were happening. Even though I had a good credit score all my life, I was the beneficiary of those High Flying Wild West times myself. I remember on the first four Plex I owned after I had moved out of it so I didn’t even occupy it anymore, I got a generous appraisal for a 90% combined loan to value, cash out, refinance 90% that I would not get today, no way.
Caeli Ridge 22:10
Yeah, but that knee jerk is, I think, also part of the problem. They go the opposite way that pendulum shift is, I feel like there needs to be a little bit more reasonability in the mix and different markers to justify who should be getting or being able to take advantage.
Keith Weinhold 22:26
When we talk about investor loans versus owner occupied loans, that really begs the question. Now, when does it make sense to house hack versus go straight into investor loans? What are some of the trade offs there.
Caeli Ridge 22:41
I would argue that if you are in a position and you’re willing to share your primary residence with you know, tenants house hack is always a great idea, because you’ve got these great loan terms, you’ve got this massive leverage, and almost always you’ve got other people making the entire mortgage payment for you, or the vast majority of that mortgage payment, I’m such a big fan of that is a strategy for real estate investing. You’ve got to do it right. You got to do it by the rules. But I can’t think of a downside if you qualify and you’re willing to do that, to live with other people right next door, etc, etc. Some families don’t think that that works for them, whatever, but I just think it’s a fantastic way to jumpstart someone’s real estate investment journey and then continue it. If you do it right every 12 months, then you’ll be able to continue to parlay into the next, the next, the next. One thing I would say about that that I don’t get a lot of opportunity to talk about, but since we’re talking about here, if you’re going to house hack and you’ve got, you know, a duplex, triplex fourplex, and you want to manage it yourself, which I think everybody should be responsible to manage at least one rental property in their lifetime, maybe official, yeah, yeah. More often than not, people will tend to pay for that service down the road. But having the experience is valuable. Do not tell the other tenants that you are the home owner, do yourself a favor and just you’re another tenant, but you’re taking care of you know, you don’t want to let them know that you actually own the property. There’s lots of emotional and different things that you want to avoid giving that information away to the tenants.
Keith Weinhold 24:17
I have had two friends, and each friend owned a fourplex, and what they did is they would manage the other person’s fourplex. That way, they were able to keep it more professional and less emotional, since it wasn’t the owner directly dealing with the tenant, and that provided a buffer that really benefited them. I haven’t done that myself, but I found that such an interesting way to approach it?
Caeli Ridge 24:42
Yeah, that’s smart. If that ends up being your situation, definitely horse trade that way. Otherwise, you’re just a tenant and you can be on call whatever, just avoid giving that information back to the other tenants that may be there.
Keith Weinhold 24:54
Well, there’s an underwriting reality out there that chili can share with us versus. Some of the online advice that you get, and what some of the biggest myths are that borrowers believe. We’ll talk about that next. You’re listening to get rich education. Our guest is Ridge lending Group President chailey Ridge, more we come back. I’m your host. Keith Weinhold.
Keith Weinhold 25:12
Flock homes helps you retire from real estate and landlording, whether it’s one problem property or your whole portfolio through a 721 exchange, deferring your capital gains tax and depreciation recapture. It’s a strategy long used by the ultra wealthy. Now Mom and Pop landlords can 721 the residential real estate request your initial valuation, see if your properties qualify@flockhomes.com slash, slash GRE, that’s F, l, O, C, K, homes.com/gre
Keith Weinhold 25:47
the same place where I get my own mortgage loans is where you can get yours. Ridge lending group and MLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than anyone because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. Start your prequel and even chat with President chailey Ridge personally. While it’s on your mind, start at Ridge lending group.com that’s Ridge lending group.com
Ted Sutton 26:22
Hey, it’s corporate directs Ted Sutton, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don’t quit your Daydream.
Keith Weinhold 26:29
Welcome back to get Rich’s case, we’re talking with a familiar and recurrent guest Ridge lending group, President Caeli Ridge Kelly, talk to us about your underwriting reality there, versus some of the advice that one gets online sometimes, including what really gets a loan approved with some of those things like income and reserves and DTI.
Caeli Ridge 26:59
You know, this can be so confusing for the consumer, because there are so many different vehicles in which to get Mortgage Funding, and there’s something in our industry called an overlay. Okay, an overlay is taking the purest form of a guideline and adding layers of risk to it. I’ll give you an example. Let’s say that we know, or most of us know that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac allow for up to 10 finance properties per qualified individual, right? That is a straight Fannie Freddie guideline B of A, and this could be wrong, but a big boy bank may have an overlay and layers of risk that say we will only allow up to four, right? So all of this differing information, conflicting information, when the nice thing with ridges is that we go by the purest form of the guideline, we are not going to impose those overlays. So in working with us, you’re always going to be sure that we know exactly what those guidelines are. We know them like our own faces, and that we’re not going to impose some additional risk layering or overlay that might prohibit or preclude the qualification. It’s pretty basic stuff. I mean, if you’re going full doc, Fannie Freddie, and this can apply to our owner occupied and, of course, all of our non owner occupied income, debt to income, credit and assets, it’s a pretty basic formula that we use. And then we’ve got all the other products that we have. Again, knowing those underwriting guidelines like the back of our hand, is very important to making sure that we can navigate the battleship in a creek. That’s the analogy that I give that tends to be mortgage lending, or what feels like mortgage lending anyway. So it’s pretty basic. We have to understand what the borrower’s qualifications are out of the gate, and then we can provide them with a schematic of options that they can tell us which direction they want to go in
Keith Weinhold 28:42
for quite a long time now, one could get 10 conventional investor loans, single or 20 married. It wasn’t always that way. I remember attending a real estate workshop in 2012 and you could only get four loans, or at least you could only easily get four investor loans before that expanded to 10. And we just shouldn’t always assume that it’s going to be this way forever.
Caeli Ridge 29:06
Yeah, so I kind of going back before 08,09, there was no limit to the number of finance properties Fannie and Freddie would secure per individual. After that crash, it shut off, and it got to four to your point. And then it stayed there for a while, until we kind of brought it back to that 10. You know, there’s been rumors for years that they’re going to up it to 12 or 15 or some random number. I don’t even know where it’s coming from. I always make a joke and say, Yeah, between now and my death, we’ll see that. But it would be nice. It would be nice if they increase that number a few
Keith Weinhold 29:35
now, as someone is qualifying there, you probably run into a lot of borrowers that believe certain myths or have to have misconceptions corrected. Tell us about some of those
Caeli Ridge 29:45
the biggest myths, I’m going to say that it’s probably one of three things they believe that they’ve got to make 10s of 1000s of dollars a month or hundreds of 1000s of dollars a year to qualify. Absolutely not true. It’s so much less about the monthly. Income than it is the monthly income in relation to your minimum payments on your credit report. So just as an example, I could have a client that only shows $1,000 a month of income, but if they truly have no debt and some of the other qualifying criteria, they can qualify for a mortgage on an investment property, because the investment property has income to offset that mortgage payment. So it dispel the myth about having massive amounts of monthly income. That’s not necessary. It’s about the income and your monthly debt that we find on your credit report. That would be the first thing. The other thing, speaking of credit reports, I would say, is that a lot of times, people think that the overall debt that they’re carrying matters. I mean, Mr. Jones could have $300,000 worth of debt, but his monthly payments are only 1500 All I care about is that monthly amount. I do not care what the total outstanding debt is. I hear that one a lot inquiries, credit inquiries. Every time you have your credit pulled, it drops the score, 20 points. Not the case. Now I can go down that rabbit hole, Keith, but it is a rabbit hole, so maybe I’ll just leave it there. Your credit score does not drop X number every time you have your credit pulled. That’s a misnomer.
Keith Weinhold 31:07
Well, actually, that brings up a thought. Then once prospective borrower initiates with you in there and gets the ball rolling in qualifying for a loan, what are some reasons that deals die late in the process? So what does it take to be sure to hold that together?
Caeli Ridge 31:23
You know, I think it all boils down to communication. And we tell our clients this on the front end, treat us like your attorney. You tell us everything, do not own anything, so that we can ensure that we’re guiding you appropriately. So lack of information can derail things. Let’s say, for example, they change jobs, and it’s a completely new line of work, and it could prohibit or preclude the amount of income that we could have we were using now DTI gets changed, or they buy a new car in the middle, and they don’t think it’s going to come up. And now it’s a DTI issue. It can be all kinds of things, but the point there is communication is key. Just keep us informed, and then we will give you the input or advice, and then you do what you want with that. But at least it’s not once the bell is rung.
Keith Weinhold 32:05
Live pretty conservatively and safely until that loan closes. Yes, sir. Well, does that bring up any stories? Sometimes people learn better that way. Is there a deal? Perhaps that should have worked, but it didn’t.
Caeli Ridge 32:20
That’s a good question. You know, I think that the answer is no, and mostly because we have such a diverse menu of loan products, even if something did happen and even if it was outside of anyone’s control, let’s say we would normally just pivot to another loan product that would accommodate whatever that event ended up being. I cannot think of an example where a deal fell apart that could have gone differently, that we weren’t able to just simply pivot into another path and close the loan for
Keith Weinhold 32:49
well, America is a place that promotes entrepreneurship, and it seems like side hustles as well are more popular than they’ve been before. So can you talk to us about how self employed borrowers get evaluated?
Caeli Ridge 33:04
Yeah, it is different. I mean, the simplest way to describe it is, we’re going to take the adjusted gross income, but there are something called add backs. So depending on what their deductions are, there are certain things like Depreciation or Amortization or, I mean, there’s a whole slew of things that we’re able to take those numbers and add it back into the Adjusted Gross and then divide by 12 or 24 whatever it needs to be. That’s typically what we’re going to be looking at for a self employed person, versus the straight w2 is just the gross income divided by 12 months.
Keith Weinhold 33:35
Well, Caeli, this has been really good with some strategies and some actionable tactics. Before I ask how one can learn more about ridge? Is there any last thing that you’d like to share with us, whether that’s to expand on anything we discussed, or any of the more nascent things that have happened, like banks holding less in capital reserves, or Fannie Mae, except in crypto back mortgages? Is there anything else we really ought to know?
Caeli Ridge 33:57
You know, I think my advice right now for anybody that is in real estate investing, thinking about getting into real estate investing, be informed. Listen to people like Keith, ideally, listen to people like me. I’ve been doing this for a very, very long time. I’m an educator at heart. Get your information from sources that you can trust, and try to avoid the analysis paralysis the best you can. I know that people get hung up on that, but now is the best time ever, and I would say that tomorrow and the next day and next year and the year after that, to invest in real estate.
Keith Weinhold 34:27
Yes, the only thing that could possibly make now better than ever is now is sooner than it’s ever going to be again. Well, Caeli, if someone wants to get a hold of ridge so they can tell you their situation, and you can then help them find out how you can best help. What should they do?
Caeli Ridge 34:43
There’s so many ways. Check out our website, ridgelinengroup.com you can email us info@ridgelinengroup.com you can call us toll free at 855, 74, Ridge. All of those ways get to us, and I look forward to speaking with each and every one of you
Keith Weinhold 34:58
that’s been valuable. Always It’s been great having you here.
Caeli Ridge 35:01
Thanks. Keith
Keith Weinhold 35:08
Caeli brought up a great point from the lender’s view, when they make a loan, it might be safer for them to lend on an income property loan, actually, than it is for your own home, because on the income property, you have a substantially higher qualification bar to clear, and you have to make a higher down payment on it. I hadn’t thought about it that way before. As far as Fannie Mae accepting crypto backed mortgage structures, that is still new as of this year. How it works with a crypto backed mortgage is that you’re usually getting two loans. First you get a normal mortgage, and then for your down payment, it’s a separate loan that’s backed by your crypto. Your crypto stays locked up for years and you can’t trade it while it’s pledged as your home down payment. That’s generally how it works. But notice the attraction. You would also get to keep your crypto while you’re leveraging it. Also notice the risk there, and very few banks offer this, think Coinbase and not JPMorgan Chase. It’s still new and niche, and it remains to be seen whether or not crypto backed loans will gain any real traction. It’s only likely going to accept Bitcoin, Ethereum or stablecoins, not altcoins. Only about 1% of homebuyers use crypto in transactions. Most of what the current presidential administration has done focuses on making mortgages easier to get, not in making homes cheaper. Making mortgages easier to get means more bidders and higher prices. Washington can make it easier to get a mortgage, but they cannot make a $400,000 property cost $300,000 we talked about how to borrow to win today, and big thanks to our terrific guest. Until next week, I’m your host. Keith Weinhold, though you might quit your day job, don’t quit your Daydream.
Speaker 2 37:17
Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice, please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively you
Keith Weinhold 37:45
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